In this episode of By Marketers For Marketers Jason chats with Marcel Santilli, SVP of Marketing at Upkeep
Today’s guest is Marcel Santilli, the SVP of marketing at UpKeep. Upkeep digitizes work requests for maintenance, facilities, and operations teams. This will be a two-part episode, and today’s half will focus on prioritization and building out a team. Read the second part.
There are always too many things that need to get done in a startup. One mistake that many marketers make is to come with preconceived notions about how things should be, and look for things that conform to their playbook. A better approach is to start with a broad understanding of what needs to get done and focus on just a few things, but that’s easier said than done.
One thing to think about is being effective and efficient. Being effective means having direction and understanding your customers. Being efficient is about speed. Going very fast in the wrong direction can almost be worse than going very slow in the right direction. The things you say no to are by far more important than the things you say yes to.
To improve personal efficiency, it’s useful to be intentional about auditing your calendar on a fairly regular basis. What percentage of your time is uninterrupted deep work, versus meetings or checking communications? COVID made it a lot harder to strike a good balance because meeting frequency has increased, so blocking off your most productive times can keep you from being too busy on those days.
When it comes to teams, ask, “Is there an agenda for this?” “What are you trying to accomplish with this?” “Can we do 20 minute meetings instead of 30 minute meetings?” “Can you do 15 minute meetings instead?”
If you’re earlier in your role, figure out how to leverage your time through people that are not full-time hires. If you’re fortunate enough to bring in a right-hand person that you’ve worked with before, there’s a level of trust and you know exactly how that person operates.
How you go about hiring and thinking about hiring is going to depend on the company. If you’re growing very fast, you need people that know things already. In other companies, you can’t afford to hire someone senior for every role. Hire more senior for roles that are less familiar to you, and hire freelancers for roles you’re familiar with.
Balance between new and seasoned talent is really important. Usually product marketing will be one of the first roles to fill. Your next hire should be someone that bridges the gap between customer data technology and your go-to-market operations, and then a marketing ops person. Later on, if you’re hiring people and they’re smarter than you, you’re definitely doing it right.
There’s less risk hiring a generalist full-time. But if you need a specialist, you might want to go a little bit more towards freelancers and contractors and specialists that can bring in depth of expertise. You’re doing more of the orchestration of everything.
Jason Widup (00:04):
Hey folks, Jason Widup here back with another episode of By Marketers For Marketers. Before we start this one, I just wanted to let you know, this episode was so great that it went long. And so, I decided to split it up into two parts. So please enjoy part one now for 30 minutes, and then next week, we’ll release part two of this great episode with Marcel Santilli. Thanks, and enjoy.
Hey everybody. It’s Jason Widup again. Welcome to, I think this is now episode five or six now, it’s hard to keep count, of By Marketers For Marketers. Here today, I am happily joined by somebody that I’ve spoken to quite often, he’s actually a cab member of ours and a big help for me. So Marcel Santilli, the SVP of marketing at UpKeep. Marcel, why don’t you introduce yourself and the company real quick?
Marcel Santilli (00:57):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So Jason mentioned, I head up marketing and also rev ops and doing a little bit of everything at UpKeep really. Been at UpKeep just, actually today’s my one-year anniversary, so that’s kind of crazy. What a crazy year to join a company, right? It’s been quite a wild ride in good ways and obviously bumpy for all of us. It’s been a lot of fun, and really, really exciting as a lot of people kind of started the year, and then we didn’t know what was going to happen, cut down on costs. Luckily, we didn’t have to lay off anyone, but being able to just really build things in a very different way than we originally thought going into the year.
A little background on Upkeep. So Upkeep kind of serves the part of the market that we like to call desk-less workers. And so, some stats put it at about 70% of all the workers are actually desk-less. What it means is just, they’re not sitting in front of a computer like you and I, they actually move around, which must be nice. And so we focus on just giving tools that we’re all used to to maintenance teams. And so, think of everything almost you touch, there’s probably some maintenance team behind the scenes, whether it’s maintaining a manufacturing plant, a distribution warehouse, the facilities that we go into. I like to think of it as something that I can relate to.
So think of, you get a really nice espresso machine, and it says, hey, you got to do this, this and this every so often. If you decide not to do it, maybe that’s okay, saves you a little bit of time. But over time, that thing is going to break and won’t produce. So now, imagine you’re producing your product and if your manufacturing plant goes down for an hour, you lose thousands and thousands of dollars. Maybe you have to fly someone from another country to go fix it. And so, a lot of that is super critical that we don’t even think about in our day-to-day lives. So, Upkeep is really about digitizing a space that has been traditionally underserved.
Jason Widup (03:01):
I like that. I need that for myself at my house. It’s kind of funny, I had this idea like years ago, I think HomeAdvisor does it now maybe. You can sign up and it might remind you of when you need to change your air filter or whatever. I interviewed with this company I think that ended up either acquiring them, with that idea, and then all of a sudden, like six to 10 months later, I saw that [inaudible 00:03:28]. I interviewed for this marketing job, like, what would you do, what would you do with the product if, oh, well, there’s that thing I told them about. Who knows? It was probably already in development, but I need that.
Marcel Santilli (03:38):
My wife would say that I definitely need that for reminders and other things. I’m really on top of stuff at work, and then at home, I’m not as good. So definitely something I’ve been working on.
Jason Widup (03:49):
Well, Marcel, I’m happy you joined me today. We’ve been planning this for quite a while, honestly. I’ve had to postpone on you several, we’re in the middle of December right now just for people that might be listening to this, middle of December, 2020. I want to thank you for being patient with me and letting me reschedule that. There’s been some interesting times going on. I’ve been dealing with some personal stuff in my life, that’s why I had to cancel on you last week, so I appreciate that. But it’s kind of interesting, it all ties together. And that’s what I like about you specifically, when we first kind of talked, I could tell that you’re a real person first, a human first and then a marketer second. So thanks for that. I appreciate it. So how are you doing by the way?
Marcel Santilli (04:40):
Good. It’s been a crazy year. Just a little background. So the last three years we were renovating our house, which is kind of crazy, in that process, we decided to get a house before getting married too. We just changed the order on everything, and then changing jobs. Luckily we finished the project before COVID hit. Luckily, everyone is kind of healthy. I think everyone has experienced a lot of things. I think finishing the year, it’s just been gratifying in some ways, and just being thankful for health and that you get to spend time. I think if anything, this year just put a focus on what actually matters as far as people, your relationships, friends that you really deeply care about. In some ways, that’s nice because I think the more you go in life, the more you want maybe less people, but people that are, it’s kind of a two way street, and that really matter to you, and that you kind of give back a lot to. And so, this year has been kind of crazy, but has helped focus on those things.
From a work perspective, and I would imagine a lot of people are in the same boat, I’ve never been more hands-on, I’ve never worked harder, and I probably, this is the last time off I’ve ever taken in a single year too. In that way, I’m actually looking forward to a little break here in a week or so for sure.
Jason Widup (06:25):
Me too. Me too. I feel like I’m on that race, race to the finish line, that temporary finish line. But yeah.
Marcel Santilli (06:32):
It’s like we’re all doing three or four people’s job now.
Jason Widup (06:36):
Yeah, yeah. Cool. Well, I of course forgot to introduce the topic, so I’m going to introduce the topic now, and we’ll jump in. So, Marcel and I are going to talk today about really kind of tips, I don’t want to say tricks, tips, experiences we’ve had growing marketing teams, building marketing teams, primarily from a startup perspective, but Marcel has more experience than I do. But that’s also where we’ll kind of see maybe some differences of thought. I still, and I was telling Marcel this a little bit ago, this is really, I’ve worked at small companies before but this is really my first true startup. My first time as the sole marketer, I’m not a sole marketer anymore, thank goodness, but it was my first time kind of as a sole marketer. The other times I worked at small companies were mainly agencies. So it was like, it almost doesn’t count. It’s a completely different beast.
So most of my experience comes from growing teams at these big companies. And I know Marcel, you got experience there too. And then you made the leap to startups sooner than I did, which was a smart move. Anyway, that’s our topic today. So we’re going to go around things like how do you prioritize your day? How do you get all of the things done that need to get done? Who do you hire first? What areas do you really need to look at when you’re starting to grow the team from one to two marketers? What things are best left with agencies, freelancers, those kinds of things, versus what things you really need to have in-house? And then just kind of go from there. Tools maybe, some of the tools that we use to help scale ourselves.
Marcel Santilli (08:27):
Got a full list.
Jason Widup (08:30):
Yeah. We’ll jump right in. Let’s just do a little bit of background on the teams that we’ve actually done of, just to give a little bit of context. So why don’t you go ahead and go first.
Marcel Santilli (08:41):
Yeah. So I’ll try to do a super high level. But started my career early on at IBM and kind of fast forward a little bit, I was part of this division at IBM security that started from a few acquisitions plus getting a bunch of security products into one division. So, in a lot of ways, it kind of felt like a startup. But what’s been interesting about my journey both at IBM and then at HP, which are Fortune 50 Fortune 100 companies, is that I’ve had to be really scrappy as well. And so, at IBM, I built this-
Jason Widup (09:17):
Even at those larger companies.
Marcel Santilli (09:18):
Exactly. So that should give you an idea, like at IBM, we built a site called securityintelligence.com, which was kind of this off domain site, but I didn’t have any headcount, and very little budget. So, I had to get really scrappy with agencies. At HP, I was able to build a team and we launched a site called techbeacon.com, and it was really like kind of content marketing at really large scale, doing like 15 articles a week. But in that, again, a lot of restrictions around hiring, but then also being able to have flexibility in moving quickly with vendors and things like that. So, I relied very heavily on Upwork and a few other tools to just being able to move very quickly and get things done very quickly that are not normal in big enterprises.
And then, I was at HashiCorp for a little over two years. Just an amazing company, great journey. And I started there, we were 100 people. Two years later, 500. My team went from just me to about 26, give or take.
Jason Widup (10:25):
Over how long a period of time, two years you said there?
Marcel Santilli (10:27):
Two years, yeah.
Jason Widup (10:28):
Yeah, that’s fast.
Marcel Santilli (10:29):
The crazy thing is we were hiring really fast, but actually getting approval for full-time employees, like FTEs, was a little tricky. And so, I relied very much on hiring people as full-time contractors and figuring out hybrid models, and then converting them to full-time employees. Mostly not because I wouldn’t hire them full-time, but just because of how the logistics work, and also a lot of freelancers, but then building for scale.
Then I was at ServiceTitan as well, rely a lot of also hybrid model, and then at UpKeep, we are probably 50-50 right now between freelancers, smaller agencies, contractors, and then full-time employees. Yeah.
Jason Widup (11:13):
Nice. Yeah, I’ve got questions in there, but I’ll go through mine real quick too just to give context. I started my management career in consulting. And so, I got into consulting, I was doing primarily, back then it was website analytics, which would have turned into marketing operations kind of later on. And so, I didn’t really, I grew some teams, but I think growing a consulting team is completely, it’s totally different than growing a team at a company, client side. So that didn’t really help me. Then these were pretty small teams.
I was at Webtrends for a number of years, had my own company, kind of services thing for a little. Then I went to Microsoft, and what’s interesting about my time at Microsoft was that was similar I think to you at HP is that big company head count was limited, so much budget for contractors. I think Microsoft, when I was there, was something like 30% contractors, of all the head count. It was a ridiculously high number and it was interesting. So I kind of got used to that model of in-sourcing some stuff, offshoring some stuff, those kinds of things.
But like most of my career has been inheriting teams and then growing those teams. So I never really had that from really beginning to end experience. I don’t know what I’m doing here. I kind of do, but not really. This is my first time at it. That’s kind of the, I guess, we’ll call that the background.
Let me ask you a quick question on the, oh, you know what, nevermind. I wrote something down and I can’t even read my writing. I’ll come back to it later. We both have a little bit background, big companies, smaller companies. So, let’s say we start out at a place and we’re the sole marketer. And the rub is the product that we’re selling, it has to appear, we’re selling to enterprises, let’s say, we’re selling to enterprises, we’re selling to large companies. It has to at least appear that there’s some good marketing going on. No enterprise is going to want to buy something from some janky, you know what I mean, like what are they doing? So we’re the sole marketer and we have to look like a bigger team.
I think the first problem that I had is, I had luck just because I’m so, I’ve been doing this for such a long time, I’ve seen it all happen around me. And so, even though I was primarily in ops. How do you prioritize all of the work that you know you have in front of you? So you’re just like, you’ve got sales reps, yourself, you’ve got sales reps coming at you for things. They all have previous experiences in what marketing worked at the places that they’d been at before, so they come to you with these ideas. You have what you know and what you want to do. How do you start to think about prioritization?
Marcel Santilli (14:21):
Yeah, that’s really interesting because, I think one mistake that a lot of marketers make is they have a playbook, and they kind of come in with preconceived notions. And they just kind of have this confirmation bias of just looking for things that confirm that their playbook is the playbook that they need to apply. And so, that’s I think really dangerous. And so, from my perspective, how I like to think about is really understanding how strong is your product market fit, but not only that, kind of your overall go to market, and how much clarity do you have around your ideal customer profile.
And the reason I say this is because even if your product is there, and there’s traction and people are buying, what I have found is that there’s usually some gray areas, at every company I’ve been at, right? But especially fast growing startups, it’s like, hey, this person is willing to give me a check, but should I take this check? And more importantly, if I have additional, I don’t know, let’s call it $10,000, do I want to spend that money on finding someone like this or no?
So, I think from that perspective, prioritizing really depends on how much confidence do you have in that. So for us at UpKeep, one of the things we did, and COVID made it even more important to do was just talk to a lot of customers, a lot of prospects. We actually conducted 160 interviews in a two month period with almost no budget. We were just giving a $50 gift card as like a thank you. We actually, instead of letting go of additional capacity on the SDR team, I moved two SDRs, and so, we got scrappy at the beginning.
But that really helped set the priorities for the rest of the year as far as really understanding kind of who we’re for, what kind of customers we serve better than anyone else, and who should we deprioritize? And then adding the lens of kind of COVID and how different industries were impacted. And so, I think that’s one aspect of how do you prioritize your time.
So it’s almost like starting with the why, right? And then the other aspect I always think about, and that I got this from HashiCorp when I was there, they’re a very principles driven company, is really thinking about effective and efficient. And so, effective is about direction and understanding your customers. Definitely that part. Efficient is about speed. So you can go very fast in the wrong direction, and that’s actually almost worse than going very slow in the right direction. You’re doing both.
And so, I think about prioritization as that. But then a big aspect of it, which I think is more important than anything else in startups, is the things you say no to are by far more important than the things you say yes to. And if you can just not be reactive at the beginning, that’s one of the hardest things to do. Your month one, let’s assume you’re coming in, it’s like, make sure you align the expectations of, hey, I’m going to optimize for learning month one, because anything you do in month one before you learn, you hire someone, there’s a high chance that’s going to be wrong, or the right person at the wrong time.
Any investment decisions you make, everything you do is going to not have that context. And so, try not to be reactive. Versus like you start like day one, it’s like, hey, we have the newsletter that has to go out tomorrow and it’s kind of broken. Can you figure that out for me? And, oh, hey, the website needs some help. I don’t know what’s going on, we got to launch this page. Hey, we have a launch next week. It’s like, hey, pretend I’m not here for a month.
Jason Widup (18:10):
What were you doing before I was here. Keep doing that a while longer. Well, I think it’s interesting, you kind of sparked something in my mind too, which was, in that scenario too, you want to have perspective, you know what I mean? Because especially if you’re coming in new, like at that example, you don’t want to be that order taker. You know what I mean? You don’t want to get into that role of like, oh yeah, I’m just going to do whatever you guys want. I’m here to fulfill tactical marketing stuff. I’m here to execute marketing. You don’t want to get into that trap I don’t think either.
I think it’s also, what’s interesting I guess, it’s also important I think to have some quick wins, some early wins when you come in, to get that respect and trust, do you know what I mean, kind of built up a little bit. Like, okay. Because the last thing you also want to do is have your marketing and your ideas constantly being filtered by other people I think because that’s not going to make you feel good.
Marcel Santilli (19:11):
One thing that I like to kind of think about too is, I think it’s a great forcing mechanism, for us in our board meetings, we have kind of highlights, lowlights and outlook. And it all has to be in one slide and it’s very short. We write things up. But it kind of the outlook section. I kind of think about that a lot. And then I think about, at the beginning of the quarter, what do I want to put in the highlight section as well, of the next board meeting. And you kind of have to work your way backwards. And so, I love this concept too, that we started playing around with, which is themes, as opposed to priorities and projects and specific deliverables, but really kind of themes.
So for us, the big theme this year was decreasing our reliance on paid channels, not because we wanted to do less, but because we wanted to get, free up resources that were starving off everything else that we wanted to invest in. So there’s these big themes that if you can stick to them for more than a quarter, they also give you a lot of perspective, like you said, on what matters and what to say no to.
Jason Widup (20:27):
I think that’s important too, because if you prioritize themes, like you said, instead of these individual tactical things, I think it also helps you psychologically too, because then you’re just like, hey, I’ve got three priorities, you know what I mean? For this next quarter, these are my three priorities. If a request comes in that doesn’t somehow fit one of these three things, then what am I doing? Should I actually be working on it or not? At least it causes you to pause and think about it. If it doesn’t align with one of these three things, I really need to think about should that be fit into my day somehow, and I think that’s an important thing.
And the other thing I was thinking about is, you really have, and this is where me working for so long before I did this I think helped, is you really have to be in tune with yourself and like, can you accurately estimate how long something is going to take you to do? You know what I mean? And can you accurately estimate the impact that that thing is going to have? And can you accurately figure out which things are good? So you’ve got to have some ability to have a perspective I’d say on that as well. What are those things and what am I good at? And how long is something going to take me? Because that’s a trap I’ve fallen into before too, is a lot of us are really optimistic. So we’re like, oh yeah, I can do that, I can do that, I can do that. And it’s like, you can do all those things if you do them poorly, and really hastily.
And then also I think it comes to that focus. If I can focus on a couple of things, then I’m probably going to do a better job at it too. And so, I’m a big fan of, and even at big company was, I was a big fan of talking about like, let’s juggle three balls, and then let’s get perfected at that. Let’s not try and juggle seven balls and walk forward at the same time. Let’s juggle three balls and run fast. You know what I mean? And then we’re done with those three balls, let’s take the next three balls and let’s juggle and run forward with them.
Marcel Santilli (22:19):
I think also COVID and everyone being remote at once makes it even harder. I think something that I’ve tried to be really intentional about is auditing my calendar on a fairly regular basis and trying to be really intentional about the macro of my calendar. And what I mean by that is what percentage of my time is heads down work of longer than 30 minutes, because if it’s less than 30 minutes, you’re not going to get anything done. Uninterrupted deep work. What percentage of my time do I want it to be one-on-ones with my teams or with peers, with the CEO or whatever, what percentage of my time is recurring group meetings. And then, what percentage of my time is kind of what I like to call maintenance tasks, which is Slack and email and communicating and things like that?
And so, if you can be intentional about that, that really helps. And one thing I actually started to do, which is kind of a little hack for me, at least personally, is I actually use Google Calendar for every single minute of the day is tracked, on at least 15, but usually at most like 30 minute increments. So, at the end of the week, I look back and I know, and I color code the whole thing. So I know exactly, and then I write down what I did. If at the end of the week, I’m feeling like, if I’m feeling energized, okay, I’m doing something well. If at the end of the week, I’m like, oh man, I’m exhausted. It’s like, okay, I’m doing something wrong, I’m not enjoying my job this week.
But COVID I think made it a lot harder because what I started to notice is just meetings after meetings for every little thing. And so, if you can put mechanisms in place, I think, so for example, I actually block my entire Thursday and my entire Friday and most of my mornings, which are my most productive time. Not always does that get respected, but after a while, we would start to get the message.
And with my team it’s kind of the same thing, it’s like enforcing things, like, hey, is there an agenda for this? What are you trying to accomplish with this? Can we do 20 minute meetings instead of 30 minute meetings? Can you do 15 minute meetings instead? Little things like that can go a long way. You got to figure it out now in these kind of new times.
Jason Widup (24:43):
I like that too. It’s kind of funny because I used Clockify for a while so that I could actually track, yeah, just like the things, and then I got out of practice. But it’s been something I’ve been thinking about picking up again because, the thing that I thought, actually one of the bigger benefits that I got was actually time-boxing things. It was like, well, how much time do I want to spend on this? And just being able to look at the clock and really quickly say like, oh, well I’m overtime, or I’ve got 15 more minutes on this, so I’d better, and it was kind of helpful. So cool.
Let’s pivot a little bit. So the next topic we’ve got is around, we’re the single marketer, we’re figuring out what we need to do, we’re getting it done. And now, we got some funding, we’re about ready to make some hires. So how do we think about the first couple of hires that we want to make, and how do we think about starting to build that team out? So what are some of your thoughts there?
Marcel Santilli (25:39):
Yeah. I’m fairly biased towards, if you’re earlier in your role, especially the first month or so, as much as you can, figure out how to get leverage on your time through people that are not full-time hires, unless you’re bringing in kind of that right-hand person that you’ve worked with before. There’s kind of that level of trust and you know exactly how that person operates. You all interact pretty well and you just know it.
How I like to think about it is really kind of taking a step back. I think each company is different. So if it’s a company that’s a bit more self-serve model, more product led growth, and maybe smaller deal sizes versus enterprise, more complex, I think the approach is very different. But I tend to think about hiring around things that even if I could do it myself, I’m probably not the top 1% on the planet on this day. That’s how I kind of like to think about it.
And then even how you go about I think hiring and thinking about hiring also is going to depend on the company quite a bit. At HashiCorp, we had this mentality of hire the best talent, try to pay hopefully top of market and get them in as quickly as possible, and kind of go from there. At the stage that we were at growing very fast, we needed people that knew things already, you didn’t want people [inaudible 00:27:14] on the job.
In other companies, it might be, you know what, even though we got funding, we can’t afford to hire someone like super senior for every role. So, what I try to do is hire a little bit more senior for roles that maybe I didn’t grow up in, if you will. For example, I’m not a product marketer from the beginning, right? I’ve never done product marketing as a full-time job in my career. So I want to hire someone more seasoned there if I can.
But then there’s other roles, like for example, the men gen growth and things like that, where, hey, you know what, if I need to do this, I can do it myself. And in those roles, I feel a lot better, still finding freelancers and contractors that give leverage on my time, but that I’m very confident in looking at the work and being able to tell very quickly, hey, is this the person that’s going to continue to be the right person for this. Versus being a black box that some freelancer does, and you’re like, I have no idea what this person is doing.
So finding that balances is really important. But for me, kind of going back to your question is, usually product marketing will be probably one of the first roles. And then kind of building out from there, your infrastructure, if you will, of your team. Another role that sometimes will fall in marketing and sometimes won’t that I usually like to hire is kind of your systems meets process rev ops/go-to-market systems and operations person. Someone that bridges the gap between customer data technology and kind of your go-to-market operations, essentially defining your process from lead to cash collection. And ideally not just marketing ops. Hopefully that’s your second hire. But if you have that person already, then yeah, absolutely, bring in a marketing ops person. Those two are usually really tricky to find product marketing and anything related to go to market systems and operations find externally because they’re not going to be that invested in it.
Jason Widup (29:26):
Yeah. Yeah, it’s interesting. I approach it the same way. I’d say when I, and this is the first time I’ve really had to think about it because most of my past leadership roles have been in operations. And so, I’ve been very familiar with that function, all the functions in operations, how to find the right people, who to find. Excuse me. My network goes all in ops. It was pretty easy. But then when I landed here, it was like, okay, I need to compliment myself. That’s the biggest thing. I need to big time compliment myself. So what do I think I’m good at? What do I think I’m good at? What do I think I’m not good at? What do I not like to do? What do I like to do?
And being an ops guy, in my past, I thought, oh, I’m the ops guy so I need to find, now I knew I needed to find somebody that could do more stuff, because I knew more of my time was going to need to be in meetings and stuff like that. I knew I needed somebody. But I thought, maybe they don’t need to be as strong in operations because I can kind of help them out. Luckily, I found somebody that was good at both, because I also was like, what you said, I usually try and find who could I bring in that I’ve worked with before? You have that trust, you know exactly how to work together. And I had the worst experience. The two people that I really wanted to bring on at the time, they both kind of fell through. I was talking to both of them and really far down with both of them, they both fell through and I was all upset, and kind of, I want to say a little emotionally upset. Thank goodness, Mark’s going to listen to this. Mark, all that happened for a reason-
Marcel Santilli (31:00):
Mark is awesome.
Jason Widup (31:02):
Luckily I found my next kind of marketing partner. But what I realized after I hired him is I’m actually not that goddamn good at the ops stuff anymore. You know what I mean? He is running circles around me. You know what I mean?
Marcel Santilli (31:15):
You’re doing something right. If you’re hiring people and they’re smarter than you, definitely you’re doing it right.
Jason Widup (31:22):
That’s how I felt. I was like, man, that is great. And I Just try and let him shine in those areas and let him run with it because that’s also important. So that was kind of funny.
Marcel Santilli (31:31):
That kind of reminds me too, it’s like, being very intentional about, am I looking for a generalist or a specialist at this stage? And at times, what I found is if you need a generalist and you think that’s going to do, then there’s probably less risk of finding that person full-time. But if you need a specialist, oftentimes especially if you’re a smaller company growing, you can’t afford to have five specialists. Especially things like performance and paid media, it’s like, hey, you can’t afford to hire somebody full time for Facebook and LinkedIn and paid social, somebody full-time for SCM. You just can’t do that. And so, in those cases, you might want to go a little bit more towards freelancers and contractors and specialists that can kind of bring in that really depth of expertise. You’re doing more of the orchestration of everything.
Jason Widup (32:30):
Speaking of that …