By Marketers, For Marketers Ep. 6: Marketing at Lean Startups Part II


In this episode of By Marketers For Marketers Jason chats with Marcel Santilli, SVP of Marketing at Upkeep

This is part two of a two part episode with Marcel Santilli, SVP of marketing at UpKeep. Read the first one. 

What are best roles for a contractor to fill?

It’s almost impossible for startups to afford external analysts, and analyst skills are really hard to replicate with an agency or with a freelancer. They don’t spend all their time mired in your data; it’s difficult to communicate with the person doing the work; you get a huge bill ;and at the end of it, your problem isn’t solved either. Contractors aren’t making connections between your go to market motion and helping marketing, sales and customer success do their jobs more effectively and efficiently.

On the other hand, when it comes to managing social media it’s useful to find very flexible partners. They give you almost an extension of your team and your Slack.  They’re in your day-to-day and documenting things, so that when you bring someone in full-time, they have a really a good foundation.

When you’re a public company, the ratio of full-time to hired help makes a huge difference. With contractors, usually they’re not going to charge that much higher than whatever your cost of employment is already. And so it ends up sometimes even costing you less overall than your cost of employment. You can also source for yourself using a LinkedIn recruiter license.

What tools do you use to achieve scale?

Canva: If you don’t consider yourself a creative, Canva is a super useful design tool, and much quicker than waiting for a designer to mock something up.

PhantombusterUseful for automating LinkedIn actions. If you’re trying to associate your personal brand with the company, use it to connect with people rather than finding them all yourself.

Upwork: While it’s not without its problems (namely huge fees fees), it’s a great place to find talent very quickly. is an interesting alternative because they have almost no fee and they handle all the contract paperwork. The freelancers contractors or vendors get paid quickly too.

Stripo.emailThis tool has beautiful, cheap email templates, and is extremely mobile responsive and customizable to different clients. Couple this with Canva for beautiful, clean emails.

Confluence: This tool is great for taking notes and documenting everything. Especially useful to those who use Google drive but are frustrated by the search features.

AsanaThis is one of the best project management tools out there. It’s easy to use for small teams and has a beautiful aesthetic.

AirtableThis database is great for managing content workflow, from ideation to handing out assignments to publishing.

Shield App: Easily connects to LI and gives stats and analytics about posts.

Read Part I.


Jason Widup (00:05):
Hey folks, Jason Widup here, back with another episode of by Marketers for Marketers. This is actually part two of a two part episode that I did with Marcel Santilli, SVP of marketing at UpKeep. Hope you enjoy. Speaking of that perfect transition, what are the good roles? You know what I mean? To either start as a freelance or agency, or keep over there versus… Which are not at all… I’ll start a little bit with a couple of these, like in my experience, and I’m going to give a very ops focused answer. But like in my experience, the analysts. It’s like the analysts, you almost can’t afford to have external. And though this guy can be completely biased on this, but it’s because as an analyst… This is how I grew up. You start to recognize these patterns in the data, even though you’re using tools to look at the data, your brain, because you’re an analyst. You just happen to get onto these patterns.
You see this analysis two weeks later, you do this analysis, and now you’re connecting the dots in your mind. And then four weeks later, you’re doing this and you’re connecting the dots in your mind. And you just build up this really rich story in your mind that almost can’t be described on paper, that I feel like it’s really hard to replicate with an agency or with a freelancer. That doesn’t have that skin in the game of it and isn’t spending all their time mired in your data. So that’s my one, and most maybe my one that I’m like, “I would really almost need the analyst to be in house from the start.” But what are your thoughts?
Marcel Santilli (01:43):
Yeah, I agree. My approach has been, I think last like analysts, and more of the person that is going to manage your systems of engagement and your systems of record. And hopefully [crosstalk 00:02:01]
Jason Widup (02:01):
The ops person, is that like the-
Marcel Santilli (02:03):
Jason Widup (02:03):
… most senior ops kind of person?
Marcel Santilli (02:05):
Yeah. So, at HashiCorp, what we did was we brought in actually a Go-To Market Systems admin person that was really like expert in Salesforce and marketing automation. But then we couple that person with probably a top-notch data engineer, right? Which was my second hire in that Go-To Market Systems team that was supporting. I think at the time almost 100, 150 salespeople. So it’s pretty large organization already. And like you said, when it comes to data and your systems, and how you’re setting everything up, it’s so critical, and it’s such a bottleneck. For me, I do not want to be hiring… Not having anyone, especially when it comes to Salesforce, which can be a nightmare or a cob web of mistakes, If you will.
You don’t want to be hiring a company that’s going to charge you 200 bucks an hour, and then probably off shore that. And they’re paying probably a fraction of that. And you can’t even communicate with the person actually doing the work sometimes. And then you get this big bill and at the end of it, your problem is not solved either, because they’re not thinking from an overall, like, “What’s your go to market motion, and how can I reflect that and help marketing sales and customer success and finance, do their jobs more effectively, more efficiently. Right? I think that one is really critical. On the other hand, one that it’s always been kind of interesting to me is how you manage digital, right?
So, if you’re not going to have this massive, massive digital footprint, I always like to find very flexible partners. Ideally agencies versus just one freelancer, but agencies that are small and flexible, right? That give you almost like a extension of your team and your Slack. They’re using whatever project management tool you’re using, right? Your Asana, whatever, right? They’re in your day-to-day, and they’re documenting things and they’re setting things up, so that when you bring someone in, they have a really a good foundation.
Jason Widup (04:12):
Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. I like that. I think I’ve had luck from an agency standpoint. I’ve had, I think the most luck probably with creative, you know what I mean? Creative agencies and I think, but that’s, again, my limited experience with agencies because like in ops worlds, I’m not usually using an agency. If I’m going to hire non FTEs, it’s probably going to be contractors. Oh, and that’s what I was going to actually earlier was that motion of hiring a full-time contractor first, I was actually, that was my experience at Tableau. So even though at Tableau, we were growing like crazy. What was interesting there is that the more important number was the percent of the total marketing budget that was for headcount versus the percent that was for what we called working dollars.
And apparently when you’re a public company, that ratio actually makes a huge difference. And maybe this is why like the Microsofts and the HPs maybe do it this way. Because you’re like, Oh, you’re burdened head count dollars. It was the percent of your revenue is too high. Oh, so let’s just go hire a bunch of contingent workers. And so that was how I did it at Tableau. I wanted them to be full time because I was an ops I’m leading ops, but I’d have to hire them first as a full-time contractor. And give them a… I’d be honest, like, “Hey, I don’t know if I’m going to, my goal is to turn this into a full-time position when I can, but I don’t know if I’ll be able to. Yeah. So it’s an interesting way of like, it’s almost like understanding, like you were saying the context of where you’re at and then doing the best that you can, you know, within that context.
Marcel Santilli (05:53):
Yeah. And one thing that’s worked for me too, that’s a little bit of a hack, if you will, there are agencies out, there are companies out there that they specialize in, like contractors and not only that they’ll W2 them for you, so they’ll get benefits, all that. And so depending on the person you’re hiring, if benefits and being W2 is important to them, you can overcome that pretty easily.
Jason Widup (06:19):
And it’s just for like an agreed upon markup or something like that. Right?
Marcel Santilli (06:21):
Exactly. Yeah. And usually it’s actually what I found is that they’re not going to be that much higher than whatever your cost of employment is already. And so it ends up sometimes even costing you less overall than your cost of employment. And so that’s been a little hack there that’s been super helpful. And then I do a lot of the sourcing myself as well. I get a LinkedIn recruiter license, and then I’ll email 100 people for every 10 conversations I have. And then those usually you’ll get like one really good person.
Jason Widup (06:57):
Yeah. Yep, yep. Cool. Okay, so we’ve hired a couple of people now. We’re off and running, but we still need some fun tools right? To help us scale. So let’s talk a little bit about some of the tools that we use, or maybe even some of the processes that we use to help ourselves scale. So I’ll start with one or a couple, like the one that, honestly, this is kind of funny because it’s ridiculous. But Canva honestly for me has, it’s probably like the kindergarteners Photoshop people listening to [inaudible 00:07:32], like what are you talking about? Canvas has opened up… Because I’ve always said, I’m not creative. I know what I like when I look at it, but I cannot create something. You know what I mean? I have to replicate something, I have to look at something, but canvas has actually. I think it’s given me more confidence that like, “Ah, maybe I can get some way. I can get close.”
So that’s one. And then another interesting one I use is called Phantombuster. And that’s one that I use to automate some of my LinkedIn actions. And so, a big part of what I’m trying to do is associate my personal brand, whatever it is with the company. Because my personal brand speaks to a lot of things that the product is known for. Like my ops background and everything I’ve learned like about ROI, and efficiency and optimization, our platform speaks to it. So I’m like, let’s tie that together. So I use it, I connect with people and I basically use it to connect with people, and to automate that, because it’s just too hard for me to go out and find all these demand in people. Connect with them to see my content. So that’s a nice one too. [crosstalk 00:08:58].
Marcel Santilli (08:44):
That’s actually how I found out about Metadata. You posted something on LinkedIn. And I can’t remember if we were already connected or someone that I was connected to liked your post. And then, I read through and then click through the link to Metadata’s website. I was like, “Oh, this is actually exactly what I needed.” We had just like, let go of like, not a great agency that was charging us a lot for doing very little with our paid media. And I was like, “This is actually going to help solve a lot of things.” And so, funny enough, it’s working, but I’m pretty bad at that. So I’ve been slacking for a while of like, it’s just like, if anything gives, it’s like, “Okay, I’m not going to do a post anywhere.”
Jason Widup (09:26):
It’s hard. Yeah, yeah. And I’m the kind of person that like, I can’t manufacturer something into a post.” You know what I mean? Like I have all this experience and sometimes I’m sitting there like, “What the fuck do I write?” And I’m like, “Well, then don’t write anything.” Like if you don’t know, then don’t know, just don’t do it. So yeah, I hope so, I guess.
Marcel Santilli (09:42):
I like this format because of it’s right. Like I feel like forcing myself in it and I think it’s also discipline. I just need more discipline for that, but just forcing myself of just posting it. But then I don’t know, maybe I’m a little bit set up goal, but I feel like marketers ruin a lot of things. It’s like we’re starting to ruin LinkedIn now too.
Jason Widup (10:01):
Yah, Some people posting like they, yeah. They feel this obligation of like the post every day. I’m just like, and there’s just so much echo chamber and going, yeah. That’s what I don’t like is like, but every once in a while you get some good stuff,
Marcel Santilli (10:13):
Bill Gates, maybe I want to hear from you once a week. But if you’re a really successful marketer, I don’t know. I just don’t see you having that much knowledge that I need to hear it from you three times a day.
Jason Widup (10:25):
Exactly. And is there enough to even say? Some of the bigger people I noticed, like I get, you see recycled content like way too frequently? Because it’s like [crosstalk 00:10:35].
Marcel Santilli (10:32):
Yeah, yeah.
Jason Widup (10:34):
Same stuff, yah.
Marcel Santilli (10:34):
I’m an audiobook guy, by the way. I consume so many audio books and it’s just, I don’t know. It’s just, I love taking walks especially now and just listening to audio books, and I feel like-
Jason Widup (10:47):
Are you fiction or non-fiction?
Marcel Santilli (10:50):
Funny enough, I’m like a hundred percent business-related or work. I know it’s kind of crazy. I just enjoy it so much, yeah, yeah.
Jason Widup (10:57):
I am the worst reader. I’m the worst reader. I don’t know. I’m just a little aside. I also can’t binge watch something. My wife was like, “Oh, [inaudible 00:11:14] found this great new show.” I’m like, “I’ll get to win [crosstalk 00:11:18]. That I can’t do it. I got to wait. I got to wait three or four more days until I can do another one.” And she’s like, “Come on.” So she left [crosstalk 00:00:11:26].
Marcel Santilli (11:26):
That’s one of those that tell me a weakness, but it’s really a strength. And you’re putting it as a weakness. That’s funny.
Jason Widup (11:33):
That’s funny. Oh man. Nice. So, tools you’ve used. Some of the tools you use. Processes that you use to help you out. What do you [crosstalk 00:11:44].
Marcel Santilli (11:43):
Plus one on canvas canvas is awesome. I am actually a Photoshop geek in high school. I took this kind of web master and a friend said, “Hey, you should check out Photoshop.” And then I was like, “I think it was Photoshop version five at the time.” Like a wow back. But I’ve always been a geek and loved design and I almost went to school for design, but then I learned very quickly that they don’t want to get people that weren’t good at design telling me how to do design. So I said, you know what? Let me go be on the client side. But I [inaudible 00:12:23]. And I think one, or actually two different ones, Upwork has been something that I’ve used for a long time. Since the company went public, I feel like… There’s some things I’m not in love with, but it’s still a great place to find talent very quickly. So [crosstalk 00:12:36].
Jason Widup (12:36):
The person that guy is going to edit this video, I found on Upwork. Yeah,
Marcel Santilli (12:41):
No. And like, I’ll give an example. The person that interacts a lot with Metadata that manages our paid media. It was funny. I went from, “Hey, I got to find someone,” to, I wrote a one short paragraph posted in Upwork. Found three people that same day. Interviewed all three of them that same day. Gave two of them and assignment overnight. Didn’t give them a lot of time intentionally. And then connected with them again on a Friday. And then by Monday, that person started, and they’d been doing fantastic.
Jason Widup (13:10):
Wow. Oh, yeah.
Marcel Santilli (13:11):
So it was like 48 hours got to do this to this person that’s productive in Slack getting work done and productive. However, there is another one that I’ve been using. It’s actually a startup. So I’ll do a little plug here because I really enjoy meeting the CEO is called And so they’re really interesting, because.
Jason Widup (13:32):
I like the name.
Marcel Santilli (13:33):
Yeah. Upwork has just charges you so much fees. So if you have the talent already and you have people that you’ve been working with, that you’ve built some relationship. They are really good at. They have almost no fee, and they’re really good about managing. For us too, we do a lot of paid contributors for like articles that come from experts. So we’re paying people a few hundred bucks here and there. And you don’t want to do an invoice and then your finance team takes maybe 30 days [crosstalk 00:14:02] and all of that good stuff, right? Like you want people to just manage everything in one place without being charged, 15 or 20%.
Jason Widup (14:10):
So they handle all the contract paperwork, all that stuff. You’re just like, “Hey, just go register here. I’m going to send you an invite or something,” or.
Marcel Santilli (14:19):
Yeah. And then what they do is they’ll invoice your company, and then you pay after the fact. So, it’s almost like they’re fronting it a little bit and their fees are pretty low and the freelancers contractors or vendors get paid super quickly too, which is huge.
Jason Widup (14:34):
Yeah, that’s nice. Yeah, I know like my Upwork guy is like, “Man, the fees.” You know what I mean? It was like, okay, I’ll pay, I’ll pay a little bit more to care for it, yeah.
Marcel Santilli (14:43):
Exactly. I mean, these people are doing amazing work. You don’t want to… Especially if you found a talent, is it talent that you’ve been using for awhile. It’s just like, you want them to get more benefit from the work that they’re doing. I have another one that I actually got into quite a bit this year. I feel like email templates thing is prior to this year was the thing I hated the most. And it, every single job was like, nobody owns it. Nobody’s good at it. The marketing ops person is not good at it. Like [crosstalk 00:15:14].
Jason Widup (15:13):
Are you talking about like actual visual template, like a visual email template kind of. Is that what you’re talking about?
Marcel Santilli (15:21):
Yah. So, there’s, super cheap and amazing. And they have some templates too, and the reason I like them, I know a lot of the marketing automation tools have a builder, but this gives you a lot more things that you can do, especially on the mobile responsive and adapting to a lot of the different email clients and whatnot. And so that has probably saved me and my team hundreds, if not thousands of hours this year, and our templates look super clean. So between Canva and that, our emails look beautiful, like super, super clean.
And then I’m huge on just documentation and documenting everything and writing things down. And so I’ve always used Confluence from Acrasium there’s a bunch of other tools out there, but it was just like, just pick something that is very easy to search. And that’s my main thing. I love Google drive, like Google docs. It’s great, but nobody knows what’s out there. They don’t know what to search in order to find the doctors. So Confluence has just been life-changing for us and Asana as well. Just being able to kind of manage everything. Anyway, I can go on and on, so I’ll just stop.
Jason Widup (16:32):
No, yeah. I use Asana as well. It’s funny because I worked at Workfront before here and I love those guys. And granted, they just sold to Adobe for 1.5 billion. So, good for them.
Marcel Santilli (16:46):
Is it something [inaudible 00:16:45]?
Jason Widup (16:48):
But it was like impossible tool to use it. It wasn’t made for us, you know what I mean? It wasn’t made for it. It was made for much bigger marketing teams and stuff like that. But even for those, it’s tough to use. And Asana, I love it. It’s just so easy to use. I honestly love the aesthetic of it too. You know what I mean?
Marcel Santilli (17:05):
They make it impossible to set up almost, right? I feel like Jira is a great tool for example, but it’s so easy for people to mess it up, right? Because so complex and you can do so much with it. So powerful, right? Whereas like Asana it’s like, yes, 90% of the time you’re like, “Oh, I wish this thing was here.” But it’s still like very pleasant to use. And I think they’ve done a really, really awesome job. Actually another one that things are more complex that Asana doesn’t really solve, Airtable. Airtable was [crosstalk 00:17:37] for me. Airtable is life-changing.
Jason Widup (17:40):
That seems an amazing uses of Airtable. I have not gotten one myself, but I’ve seen it. Yeah.
Marcel Santilli (17:44):
I love it. It’s a database, needs Google Sheets, needs a bunch of other things, and it’s very visual. So we’re actually using that for all our content workflow from like ideation to handing out assignments to publishing. And it’s just kind of a relational database almost, right? But it’s so powerful. So visual and then the other one too. And I’m like just doing all these plugs for all these companies. Miro has been life-changing because a white boarding person and I got my whole team on Miro now and I have-
Jason Widup (18:17):
Marcel Santilli (18:18):
… everything you can imagine.
Jason Widup (18:20):
That’s cool. Yeah, yeah. There’re so many out there, you know what I mean? I was just thinking of another one too I used to call it the called Shield App. And that’s a tool I use to just connect to my LinkedIn profile, right? And it gives me all these stats and all these yeah, just all this analytics about my posts, and the engagement on those posts and how many people liked it, commented. And it’s nice if you’re trying to make some kind of a presence, you know what I mean? On LinkedIn? So you can ask it a sense of like, “Oh, which of my posts are actually the most engaging?” Or that kind of thing. And so I look at that probably once a month just to get a sense of like, “Oh yeah.” What I noticed is like-
Marcel Santilli (18:58):
On some of these things is, I see a lot more companies doing this kind of product led growth approach. But what’s interesting with Airtable, with Miro is they have all confluence and a bunch of others, even Asana now, they have templates, right? And I think it’s just a great way to do something that is a little bit of marketing. A little bit of user generated content. A little bit of fast-forwarding your realizing value of that product, and creating a little bit of network effects to do it, right? Because it’s like the expertise and the things, all your customers are building, you’re packaging them up to speed up people’s adoption of your product. So it’s like, I love companies are starting to do that and just Canva and all these companies that use content to speed up the things we need to all do versus starting from scratch every time.
Jason Widup (19:52):
Yeah. And that’s a hard transition to make. We’re in the middle of that right now, right? So like when I started this job, my ultimate goal was kind of like, I think we were talking about earlier. Maybe just personally was ultimately, I want to drive as many organic hand raisers as possible with whatever it is I do. It’s going to be a mix of the organic stuff I’m doing and the content I’m doing on LinkedIn. It’s going to be the blogs. It’s going to be us writing specifically for SEO. It’s going to be thought leadership. It’s going to be… But what I want is I want that to be our primary motion, because once you get that, you know you’ve got the fit. Right. You know what I mean?
And you know, it becomes predictable. It takes time to get to that point, but it becomes more of a predictable engine. And that’s where I’m at right now, right? So when you’re starting out, sometimes you got to spend a lot of money. You got to spend some money to try and get the engine going. And luckily for us, I was able to find an arbitrage channel with conversation ads. So like where I could actually make my budget hit our goals, which gives you a little bit of space to like, “Okay, now I’m going to try and get this other engine running.”
And so, and I’m assuming that in your experience, that’s the engine that actually is the… Once you reach that point where it’s like… And I don’t know, is it a majority of your demos are going to come organically? Or where do you get to the point where you’re like, “All right, I feel good that I’ve got enough, I guess, it’s awareness and conversation, networking going on out there where it’s driving people to the site and they’re converting. I’ve got enough content.” And also, I’m pretty dialed in on the paid ad side, and what I’m getting for that.” How do you think about that?
Marcel Santilli (21:45):
Yeah, I think, again, it goes back to, it’s not one size fits all, because like Google, and all these companies. They’re making to where virtually, like you have to spend money, because even if you’re ranked number one, in some cases you could see like four or five ads before they get to you. So you’re still going to miss out on a lot. So it just depends on how aggressive you want to be about kind of renting versus earning people’s attention, right? But for example, at HashiCorp, obviously we had the advantage of being open source. So there was a ton of network effects there. It’s kind of a bottoms up adoption. And so like our top-down motion was very much sustained by that. But we got to pretty much close to 100 million, and they are without a single ad ever.
Jason Widup (22:33):
Marcel Santilli (22:34):
And so it’s kind of crazy. I really try, but they were like, “We don’t want to do retargeting, or we don’t want to do this.” And I was like, “All right, cool. It’s working. So it’s fine.” So I went like super happy on content there, and previously I really want to have you on content. But I think if you can couple that with a really smart strategy with paid, I like to think of paid as almost throwing fuel at a fire that already exists as opposed to igniting a fire that’s non-existent, and then you’re just wasting a bunch of fuel, right. That there’s nothing there right to light it up, if you will.
Jason Widup (23:09):
I’ve got an interesting question for you. So back at HashiCorp, and then I know we’re just [crosstalk 00:23:14], and I was like, “Oh, shit, I hope he doesn’t have a [crosstalk 00:23:17] stop.”. So at HashiCorp, real quick. So, the budget that you had, right? So it sounded like everybody was already in agreement. Like content is the way to go. So the budget that you had, do you think you could have hit your goals by putting that budget primarily in paid media? Or was it really out of necessity that it was like, “Hey, I don’t quite have enough, so I need to put it into content.” Or was it a third maybe, which is like, “I actually have more than enough. I could do all that all day in paid, but I know the right way is content. So I’m going to pay more actually right now to get that content engine running, because I know that’s going to work out better in the long run.”
Marcel Santilli (23:55):
Probably all of the above, but I think part of it is… So HashiCorp was very unique in the sense that at the time, now there’s even more. There’s six open source projects. And so, we were getting, and we were managing quite a bit of different websites, my team. And so we had to build a pretty large footprint. And so we’re managing, I think, 12 websites at the time, and about 7 million visitors a month, about 50 million downloads to open source projects a year. And so, volume and awareness wasn’t really the issue or leads, right? Everybody was kind of hand-raisers, because you’re running open source in production. So it’s like, “Hey, all our critical infrastructure depends on this. We should probably write them a check to make sure if something goes down, we have someone to call.” Right? And so, it was different in that way and we went very happy, so to speak.
So, if you have a technical product, adoption is really important. Or you have a freemium, it’s really, really important to think about adoption and helping people be successful with either free version or your open source version. And so, we partner with [inaudible 00:25:04], obviously the founder and the leadership team when building an education team. So the digital team partner with the education team, when we launched learn to, which has been really successful. And then, one of the things we did was just creating a ton of content, like video content. We produced almost 200 videos in less than a year ourselves. And then we had all our conferences. So we think we produce almost total, it’s five to 600 resources in our resource library and all of that with very little additional budget than what we already doing.
But to answer your question, I do think that if we were using some paid media budget to be more strategic about getting in front of certain people, it could have sped up the process. But I think at the same time, it also didn’t make sense because we couldn’t hire salespeople fast enough. And so, that was the biggest bottleneck. So even if you did get more, it’s like pipeline, wasn’t a problem leads weren’t a problem. Awareness wasn’t a problem. It was more, “There’s not enough salespeople to sell these very complex deals.” So [crosstalk 00:26:12].
Jason Widup (26:13):
Marcel Santilli (26:15):
It’s like when your magic number is very high, and you keep hiring, hiring, hiring, and your magic number, doesn’t go down. You’re just like, “Okay. Well, we don’t need more fuel in the fire right now.”
Jason Widup (26:25):
Cool. Well, awesome. Like I said, we could go on and on, but yeah, I’ll wrap us up for time for listeners’ sake. But Marcel, thanks again for joining me today. I really appreciate it. This was a great conversation and yeah, anything to tie it up?
Marcel Santilli (26:40):
No, I really enjoyed our conversation. I’m a huge fan of Metadata and I’ll do a plug for metadata. It’s been a huge help for us and I’ve been just telling so many people about it. But every time I do, I feel a little bit guilty, because it’s one of those things that, it’s like, you’re talking about conversation ads when you find something good and you just like, “Ah, man, I really want them to be successful, but I also wanted it to be a secret because this is my secret weapon right now.” So definitely, people should check Metadata out.
Jason Widup (27:15):
Marcel Santilli (27:15):
I really enjoy being a customer, and thank you for having me on.
Jason Widup (27:15):
Marcel Santilli (27:21):
Really enjoy the conversation.
Jason Widup (27:22):
Cool. All right. Thanks Marcel. And Hey, thanks everybody for listening and watching again. And yeah, we’ll be back in another couple of weeks with another episode. All right. Thanks so much.